Perfected Push/Pull - the Hive BB

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Author	Topic: Perfected Push/Pull
cloud999 Member	posted 08-12-99 09:45 PM gemini33: great question...I have been pondering this myself lately... wiser bees: perhaps a new thread on the topic might be a good idea. regards, c9 also not a trained chemist...
DR_SPAC22 Junior Member	posted 08-13-99 01:00 AM WORLOCK , ALMOST READY TO GO TO WORK . I WAS THINKING of using my 4000ml elymeiner , would this be suitable with a little bigger ratio than we disscused in the 1000ml. the reason asked is because I usually use a round bottom was not sure if it suitable for reaction . Another thing I have been meaning to ask is METHEAD said that he shakes the flask at the start of reaction ,so it will not react violently? When i do my drop and first reaction starts I let it sit and react , fill the flask with smoke , then it clears after about 10 min , then I give it heat if nessacery and spin every so often or if it starts to rise on me . I am trying to understand why it would be nessacery to spin in the beggening. Also when the flask is spun it immediately pulls back , in your push pull method will it have enough pushing pressure to push the water back into second tank no matter where you are in the reaction , or is this not important. WORLOCK the way I start is with the E and the I , and the dh2o mixed up real good . Then I drop the rp reaction starts usually very quickly. IN 500+ I will usually do 2-3 drops of the rp in smaller amounts to keep the heat down . Also I have a few bee friends that would dream of 2500 - 5000 g in a custom 72000ml with triple jacket condensors that were described as cold as a drinking glass taken out of the freezer !!! I was told the gasses were condensed and well controled .. I dont know if this is any help to you but you can take it for what its worth , I am just trying to give back in anyway I can , for what was given to me so freely .THANK YOU
Worlock Member	posted 08-13-99 05:17 AM Dr Space, Triple condensers, much koolnesss. I'm dreaming in E & I next round, with a little heat. In one of methhead posts, somewhere he says that at first the swirling mixes and activates the reaction, then he after the rxn fires, the shake down slows the rxn. All is very much similar to your own method. In the dry procedure the reaction's control factor is amount of water, along with the shake. The big whoops here are: Never worry about too much water. Using reactions internal heat. Control of the reaction, He mentions the shake down so people will know. He had to assume this would be a virgin operation for some. He did a great write-up, well thought out. Yes the shake does cause a pull, the push/pull just goes back and forth as needed. The basic function is to save you the hassle of watching the hose manualy, yet still absorb the fumes. The position of the water and bubbling is an indicator of the reactions progress. If the water was pegged in the second bottle most of the time,then bigger tanks are needed. A small batch may not move much of the water, which is fine. The good thing is NO hose boy is needed, and the fumes are controled.
Worlock Member	posted 08-13-99 05:22 AM Dr Space yeah, the round bottom is happening 4000 ml need more like 4 ozers.
Worlock Member	posted 08-13-99 06:13 AM Redox? Aerobic? Reduction? - removal of oxygen from a compound, or decrease in oxidation number=gain of electron. Oxidation? = loss of electrons, increase in oxidation number, or reaction involving oxygen(burning, rust). The definition has been expanded and oxygen is not needed. Oxidation 2I- --> I2 + 2e- Reduction (removal of oxygen) 2I- + 2Ephedrine-OH --> 2meth-I + O2(gas) + H2(gas) hence bubbling and aerobic Hydrogen-ation 2meth-I + H2 --> + 2meth-H + I2
Edwin Member	posted 08-13-99 08:29 AM I was in dream of sorts and hoped to scrape match pads no paper trail and use tinture extraction to do p/p on small scale I heard some say the rp wont work some say maybe has anyone done so sucessfully?
Worlock Member	posted 08-13-99 09:50 AM Send someone else down to a Chem lab Supply house to buy you 4 oz of Red Phosphorous. In the interim, Use the search engine look up red, RP, phos, etc. You don't scrape match pads, use a dremmel to power zip the RP off(just BS-ing you <har har> ). You see Spitball the Moderator here, gets really stoked about matchpad RP ,he has done the research, color glossy photos, and the whole eleven yards. His opinion is this: "ask about matchpad RP and you die one thousand horrible deaths. He will hang you, bury you, dig you up a week later just to call a firing squad." G'd luck Use a smaller flask for mini-batches A general guide is 1 oz Ephed : 1000 ml flask(scale it down or up)
cantstanditanymore Member	posted 08-13-99 12:28 PM DR_SPAC22 Not meaning to cause any conflict with Worlocks suggestions, i found this posted somewhere a while back on micro-scale batch size. I cannot contest to the validity of the amounts, or size of vessel but am posting it for your discretion. Micro sized batching information - E --- RP --- I2 --- flask - water gram - gram - gram -- ml ---- ml ===== ====== ====== ========= ===== 1 --- 1.0 -- 1.5 --- 50 ----- 0.5 5 --- 2.5 --11.0 --- 200 ---- 1.0 9 --- 8.0 -- 7.5 --- 750 10 -- x.x -- x.x --- 500 50 -- x.x -- x.x --- 1000 51 -- x.x -- x.x --- 2000 100-- x.x -- x.x --- 2000 150-- 30 --- 175 --- 4000
Worlock Member	posted 08-13-99 12:39 PM Dr Space, Glad you dug up my old post of weight of E and flask sizes. This table was compiled so that a generalised guide for weight of E : flask size might be determined. These were actual reactions dreamt by bees and myself. The "rule of thumb" determined from this was 1 oz /1000 ml
Edwin Member	posted 08-13-99 07:02 PM Thank you Worlock for your reply. I have been researching for some time now Ive used the search thou not all the variations you said but I will keep it up. It was a good rush to see meth heads p/p for the first time to know it was something i could do[not a chemist]so close yet so far I know of no chem/supply in my area and I would never send someone to do my dirty deed. I have learned more from the hive than I ever thought possible thank all of you who help even people like myself who are not chemist just hunger for knowlege and to not have to be at cut dealers mercy
Worlock Member	posted 08-14-99 10:07 AM I see and understand the dream on RP aquisition. However, Simply this, although it may seem a dirty deed, another person, often, will view it as an opportunity, to help a friend, and gain a "lil bit a chili too." Those who like to cook with chili powder now and then, can not safely, personally, make the purchase. "get by with a little help from my friends" "get high with a little help from my friends"
Edwin Member	posted 08-14-99 01:28 PM I see said the blind man.Gives me a different perspective I think I will give it a try .
rcRowley Member	posted 08-14-99 03:08 PM Well Spitball, I have to say that I am dreaming with match rp. I live in a midwest state where everything is watched since Mo. heated up. I don't know anybody who is cool, but clean enough to send in for the stuff who wouldn't figure out what I was trying, and the less that know about dreams the better. I have heard that a little H2O2 will help the rp react, but I don't know for sure (we'll see the next time.) Do what you can with what you got. Although I do agree wholeheartedly that going with new ingredients is the best way. On the other hand the I2 from tincture you wouldn't know the difference from the real stuff. Go figure. I hope this might help someone. rcRowley ------------------ First of all do no harm...
methhead Member	posted 08-14-99 10:01 PM DAMN!....I'm gone only a few days, and soooo many posts......first, I'd like to say that I ran 3 consecutive 1/2 ounce batches back to back, and one thing i've learned, is that no matter how you do it, the reaction always seems to do it's own damn thing.......I used the same ingredients, fresh everything, and the reactions were totally different, but made some really kill stuff.......anyways, someone had said something about wanting to understand the principles better.....I think it was Gem33.....and I think Worlock had said something about not knowing if the why the smaller scale doesn't work in the bigger flasks, but I tend to think, that it IS because of pressure........I went ahead and experimented with a 1 ouncer in my 4000, and it almost didn't work, problem I think was that there was too much water in the jugs, so the reaction couldn't kick off very well... it neither pushed, nor pulled, but I still got a 33 percent yield......maybe it was something else, but I used fresh ingredients, and everything else was text book, so that was the only thing that happened different.. anyways, hats off to anyone who has success in this process. I've tried to make it as simple as possible, so that more and more people can do it...........thanx to everyone, and if any of you got that E-mail from the lycaeum about that dumb drug bill, i'd consider checking it out.......One thing I love about the internet, is the ability to teach and learn, and that bill would wipe that out for most..........thanx again, and I'd also like to give a big THANX to Worlock, for knowing his shit, and helping out all those who need and want it......
rcRowley Member	posted 08-15-99 03:07 AM Worlock Could you elaborate more on this "dumb drug bill." As if there is any other kind. I am not aware of anything new brewing on the scene and I personally am a news junkie. You can't be too informed about current events. Thanks in advance, rcRowley ------------------ First of all do no harm...
chief_roman_nose Junior Member	posted 08-15-99 07:30 PM Could someone please explain to me how much finished product should be expected when using the above described P/P, and starting with 4000 60mg pills. If you use the described 240g E, 240g I, 80 g R...what sould you realistically expect at the end?
smethyl Junior Member	posted 08-17-99 06:34 PM When the pushing is going on, is all the water supposed to go to the other tank and let air bubble out leaving just HI or maybe thats not possible because it says the pull goes at only a complete hydrogen state, or is HI and air suposed to be trapped and still give the pull?
Worlock Member	posted 08-17-99 08:19 PM The HI/RP reaction is yielding 66% by weight, 72% by mole, from everything I have been able to verify. 240 x .66 = 160 grams Meth is 8% lighter than E because of the oxygen. I have an idea about what is destroying 28% of the ephedrine molecules.
Worlock Member	posted 08-17-99 08:55 PM The bill would make thought criminals out of everyone here. It will no longer be legal to disseminate information, if you suspect that the information might be used to perform an illegal activity. Say you tell someone how to repair a faulty starter in their Chevy. Then they use the vehicle deliver drugs. Are you legaly responsible for the crime? Yes, if you had knowledge, or even if you just suspected that this information was to be used to in the performance of a criminal act. You are as guilty as the drug dealers. Fuckin' gov't bastards, sux camel dix The whole thing is unmanageable for the DEA. Methhead promised to open 6 new labs for every one lab they closed. Well bullshit, Methhead managed to open 600 new labs for every one lab they closed. har har good one MH They are taking away your right of free speech, they want you muzzled, so you can no longer communicate. Do not worry, they can not stop anyone. They should know that much by now. History has proven, time and time again that this type of oppression destroys the society that allowed the oppressive government to fester within it. They may appear to restrict the bill to drug trafficing. But we all know, it will be worded in abstract terms so it can be expanded to fit whatever purposes they desire at the moment. It is our own damn fault for putting a bunch criminals and social misfits in public office.
Worlock Member	posted 08-17-99 09:07 PM Methead Fire off a 1/2 oz in a 1000 ml flask Same old standard ratios 1(E) : 1/3(RP) : 1.2(I2) (cut way back the initial amount of water) and you will get 66% yield by weight. You are too good, too effective, your method opened the flood gates and the whole thing got away from the DEA.
chief_roman_nose Junior Member	posted 08-17-99 11:55 PM So you guys are saying that with regard to the ingredients E,I,& R, I should only expect to end up with @66% of the initial weight of the E? The weight of the other ingredients has no bearing on the outcome? Be gentle with answers guys...I am kind of new around her, but I have seen the ruthless sense of humor that you all have, and I ask you all to please remember what we were taught as children...there are no stupid questions! Thanks to all involved in this place!
Worlock Member	posted 08-18-99 03:12 AM The E looses an OH it is replaced with an H. This converts the E to meth. The I2 can be reclaimed from the p/p tanks and the waste mixture containing lye/water and other trash. Actually the yield is 72% mole ratio of E replaced with meth. 25% of the E is damaged and ripped up in the reaction. I have prepared some experiments to prevent this from happening, will let you know what happens.
janey sue Member	posted 08-18-99 11:10 AM Methhead I had a dream last night! Where I took extracted sepertly Pseudo E and e in witch the goodole extraction fairy gave me aqbout 90gms of each from one pound of epherdra. After that I these little goodes and put them together with the I and RP then did the push/pull. Then the dream end and maby you could help me finish this dream if you please? ------------------ Let,s do it!!!
janey sue Member	posted 08-18-99 11:10 AM Methhead I had a dream last night! Where I took extracted sepertly Pseudo E and e in witch the goodole extraction fairy gave me aqbout 90gms of each from one pound of epherdra. After that I these little goodes and put them together with the I and RP then did the push/pull. Then the dream end and maby you could help me finish this dream if you please? ------------------ Let,s do it!!!
methhead Member	posted 08-18-99 07:20 PM help you?.......just read over this entire forum, and you'll find all your answers... the whole synthesis is right above you....
slick Member	posted 08-18-99 07:27 PM Hey Methhead, Before These legeslature assholes do there thing, I just wanted to thank you for aaaallllllllll !!! that you have shown me. I really dont know what problems these guys have, other than refering to your past dreams but hey, who am I to judge? Methhead, all I can say is, I had A hell of a time, Getting you to give us lucky few the wisdom that you've gained but it was more than worth the effort. EVERYONE WANTED TO LISTEN,BUT NO ONE WANTED TO BELEIVE and for those, may reflux die with ya. SLICK-OUT
spitball Administrator	posted 08-18-99 08:00 PM dude, Methhead, come on. that's ALOT to expect people to read all this, ya know. comeon. just re-type the whole thing and e-mail it to the worthy person. it's the LEAST you can do here man. christ, you ingrate. -spitball-
janey sue Member	posted 08-19-99 08:36 AM Methhead sorry I miss stated my question. what I wanted to know was will PE and E hci work in the same reaction together? And as far as you sending me your dream I all ready have it. It was just this one Little question I need before I start dreaming again. I'd just hate to get into this dream again stray off that pretty little dream you had. SO a kiss on little pink spot baby!!!!!! ------------------ Let,s do it!!!
didrexman Junior Member	posted 08-19-99 11:01 AM Slick, please help. I am new to the hive. The above link to the diagrams at xoom seem to be dead. Do the diagrams still exist? I just want to clearly understand the setup. The pics would give me more confidence in assembling the plastic gas cans. I tried a different well known method for a stash size amount of honey and in the process of bubbling dry pure E, provided the entire neiborhood with alot of anhydrous something gas. I guess screwups like this help you to get good eventually. Anyway, it was very uncool to be opening up all the doors and windows in the house at three in the morning. To add to the excitement, while i was outside in the front yard coughing, with my eyes buggin out, I see a cop car comin down the street shinin a Q-beem. I did'nt panic because i figured 1/2 gm. of E mostly bound to a coffee filter couldnt get me in any trouble. but back to the point. For all the damn trouble i am going through in the learning process, i mine as well try to perfect a method that produces a hell of a alot more honey. sorry for the rambling. Methead, Slick, Toast - you guys are the best. Thanx for the help.
didrexman Junior Member	posted 08-19-99 11:01 AM Slick, please help. I am new to the hive. The above link to the diagrams at xoom seem to be dead. Do the diagrams still exist? I just want to clearly understand the setup. The pics would give me more confidence in assembling the plastic gas cans. I tried a different well known method for a stash size amount of honey and in the process of bubbling dry pure E, provided the entire neiborhood with alot of anhydrous something gas. I guess screwups like this help you to get good eventually. Anyway, it was very uncool to be opening up all the doors and windows in the house at three in the morning. To add to the excitement, while i was outside in the front yard coughing, with my eyes buggin out, I see a cop car comin down the street shinin a Q-beem. I did'nt panic because i figured 1/2 gm. of E mostly bound to a coffee filter couldnt get me in any trouble. but back to the point. For all the damn trouble i am going through in the learning process, i mine as well try to perfect a method that produces a hell of a alot more honey. sorry for the rambling. Methhead, Slick, Toast - you guys are the best. Thanx for the help.
gemini33 Member	posted 08-20-99 08:23 PM Methhead: Is it possible to push/pull too long? or does the reaction just burn out after said time?? The reason I ask is becuase I noticed that after the reaction goes for ahile a yellow film sticks to the flask. If you let this goes longer, that yellow film starts to clear as condensation forms. Well, at this point I thought the reaction was done, BUT I let it go longer and the whole process of yellow film ->clearing repeated itself. How do you know when enough time has passed to complete the reaction? If it goes to long what are the products? Didrex: Just thought I would say that your post was hilarious. That push-pull smokin thing is a sight to be seen. With each attempt you will learn better and more efficient. One tip I can offer you is that these guys on the 'hive' are experts at what they do, thus they can afford to work at large scale levels. If you are new to this, think small at first. That is what helped me. Once you get the chemistry/equipment/experience down then scale up to suit your needs. Don't give up, just get a canary to protect you from the fumes! haha, just kidding!
spitball Administrator	posted 08-20-99 08:35 PM Ok, THIS is the shit that not only gets you busted, but adds fuel to the fire for the media and the police's campaign against us all. Seriously, untill you have a firm grasp on what the hell you're doing, DON'T FUCK AROUND! You seriously could kill yourself or others with little 'funny' fuckups such as these. at the very least, plan a system of evacuating the room of fumes. these are seriously deadly fumes that you're dealing with here. Take a damn good inventory of both your equipmrnt and your skills before ever trying someting like this again. -spitball-
rcRowley Member	posted 08-21-99 10:26 AM Amen, brother Spitball. These are words so wise most newbees won't even be able to comprehend. rcRowley ------------------ First of all do no harm...
methhead Member	posted 09-03-99 04:34 PM hehehe.........Spitball.......you said "FUCK"........hehehehe
Powderking Member	posted 09-07-99 02:11 AM Would Ephedrine freebase work OK for the redP and I reaction.I imagine it would,but would like confirmation
spitball Administrator	posted 09-07-99 02:25 AM yes.
tech9ne Junior Member	posted 12-24-1999 07:48 AM in the perfected-pull method, the ratio was:240g E/240g I2/80g RP+ 4 capfulls of h2o. I was wonder ing if anyone had a specific ml amount of h20 because cap size may vary. Also, i would appriciate an exact ml amount so that I could incorperate this recipe into smaller batches. Thanx for the info.
Xtract Junior Member	posted 12-24-1999 08:39 AM You shouldnt bee aloud to bring up old posts from the dead like this....... meXnot
mrr pyrex Member	posted 12-24-1999 08:45 PM I MUST disagree, it is a tribute to the one and only Methhead, and I can guarantee you that he would want it too!! May his legend live on! Pyrex clause
Kirt Junior Member	posted 12-24-1999 10:12 PM Hey Mrr Pyrex, If I may be so bold may I ask, what happened to Methhead? After reading some of his posts, I just declared him my hero!! Thanx! And if it is to touchy subject, not a problem, just disreguard! ------------------ I'm out! The Captain
Zipp Member	posted 12-25-1999 06:58 AM Somewhere there's a goodbye post from Methhead. He felt his work was done here. Sure left one HELL of a legacy.
Worlock Member	posted 12-26-1999 03:28 AM A capfull that methhead was the larger sized caps of 3-4 ml. Methhead said his goodbyes, but he still looks in on all of us from above. He will be very proud to see this post return it is a classic, he set "The Standard". Many bees turned this into a successfull operation. note: there is a bit of confusion concerning amount of RP. If you cook with less than 6 ounces of ephedrine you may need to increase your RP. Less than 1 oz of E you may need use 1/2 the weight of E as your value for RP.

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